Reinaldo Sousa Santos: "Happiness is not a threatening word, it's simply people feeling that their expectations are being met."

Reinaldo Sousa Santos, founder of Happy Tree, is originally from Barcelos, but a Porto native by choice – he has lived in the city for around 20 years and it’s right here that he feels at home. A graduate in Sociology of Organisations, he spent two decades as an HR director for various companies, until a sort of midlife crisis led him to take a chance on a new project. He completed his doctorate at the University of Porto's Faculty of Economics with a thesis on happiness at work, a theme that originated Happy Tree, a company whose mission is to bring more happiness into people's lives at work, but also outside of it.

He has already fulfilled the three rituals of what's said to be a complete life: he's planted a tree, written a book and had a child. In this edition of Out of Office, we met Reinaldo at the Batalha Cinema Centre, as he admits to being passionate about films. "The Shawshank Redemption" and "Notting Hill" top his list, the latter a comfort ritual he shares with his son, one that has even taken the two of them on a pilgrimage to the London neighbourhood that gives the film its name.

What exactly is Happy Tree?

It's a project I think is needed. Its mission is to bring more happiness to society, with a particular focus on work. Why? Firstly, because at work we can achieve two very important goals: on one hand, giving people more wellbeing – and people need that – but also helping companies become more competitive, more sustainable, through good people management.

What we say is that happiness at work is possible, it's good for people and it's good for business. And, often, organisations want happier, more productive people, but they don't know how to achieve that. Now, they can find a partner to do that work together.

Through what actions do you make happiness at work possible? What kind of training and initiatives do you bring to companies?

The first thing we do is dismantle the idea that happiness is joy. There's a bit of an idea that happy people are always jumping and bouncing around. And this message isn't a good one, because it creates a certain awkwardness within organisations. Often, when we arrive at companies and say that our projects are about happiness, they make us change the name to "wellbeing", sometimes "motivation", sometimes "performance" and "productivity". What we convey is that happiness is not a threatening word, happiness is simply people feeling that their expectations have been fulfilled. For organisations, it's important that people are engaged and satisfied at work, and what we do is help them along that path.

We also say that happiness at work doesn't happen after work. Our focus isn't massages at the end of the day, it isn't cinema tickets, nor activities that happen after working hours. We believe happiness is built at work.

That's why our three areas of action are: firstly, creating organised, well-planned work, with the resources for people to work well, with competent leadership to support them. Secondly, creating work that is valued and has a package of rewards that allows people to commit themselves, develop and put in their effort.

We also focus on a third area, which is ensuring a pleasant working environment for people, free of conflict, with positive relationships. What essentially threatens happiness at work – as it does in our lives generally – are relationships that aren't supportive, understanding or empathetic; on the contrary, they're a headwind that often makes work an experience where people say: "It's never Friday soon enough, the holidays never come soon enough, retirement never comes soon enough…"

What we say is the opposite: work can be an extraordinary experience for people and for organisations, as long as we do consistent, structured work grounded in what is fundamental for people at work – being able to put the best of what they know at the service of the organisation.

Ultimately, it comes down to a question of personal fulfilment, of linking personal fulfilment to work as well.

Yes. In our personal lives too, we think happiness is moments of joy. But often the happiest moments of our lives weren't about joy, they were probably about achievement. That is, someone said: "you can't do it," and we made the effort and showed: "here it is, I did it." It has much more to do with overcoming obstacles, and also with relationships. That is, I felt bad, someone helped me, someone stopped to ask if I needed help, and I didn't even know that person cared so much about me.

Happiness runs more along the path of achievement and relationships than the path of celebration. And so it isn't a message that should feel strange to companies; on the contrary, it's a message aligned with what companies want, which is to have better-sized, better-qualified and better-motivated teams. That's what we do.

How has the journey of Happy Tree been so far?

It's been very interesting. My company grew out of an initial idea that science has produced useful information that can help companies manage their people better. What we're doing is taking that information and bringing it to companies.

Our approach isn't the one sometimes associated with the subject of happiness. It isn't: "let's join hands, close our eyes and the world becomes perfect." What we say is that there's information and knowledge that can help companies have teams better prepared for the challenges they face, and help people get home more satisfied with their lives. And it's that structured, consistent, solid, science-based information that we bring to organisations, in various ways. Through training, leadership programmes, through team-building activities, for example, or consultancy in the field of people management. We touch on every area that might allow companies to manage their people better.

What year was Happy Tree founded?

Informally, we've had projects since 2020, but formally, it's existed since 2023.

If you had to pick one key moment for Happy Tree so far, which would you choose?

I think this journey has been very interesting, because people around me often told me: "Happiness at work… That doesn't seem like something that would interest organisations" – what we've seen is exactly the opposite. There's growing interest from organisations in embracing these themes, and there's a willingness from people to take part in happiness-focused programmes, because our mental health is far from what we'd like it to be.

But at the same time, with this frenzy of wanting more, we don't even value the progress the country has made. The experience of work today is very different from what it was 20 or 40 years ago. And in this desire to want more, we fail to appreciate what we already have. One of the things we often say in our programmes is that happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have. And today we have companies that are much better organised, with a much clearer commitment to training, with better-structured capacity-building programmes and increasingly capable leadership. But does that mean people are happier at work? Not yet, because they have higher expectations.

That's why this is ongoing work that will never truly be finished, but that's no bad thing. On our side, we're here to keep supporting people and organisations in this logic that happiness isn't a destination you arrive at and it's done. The destination doesn't exist, it's a permanent journey, one that has to do with what's done day to day, with having work that is well organised, well led and well rewarded. And that's what we do.

Can you name some clients you've worked with?

We've worked with many companies, from the insurance sector, banking, pharmaceuticals, construction, public companies, town councils... In all of them, obviously, we have to adjust our language a bit, because talking about business, profit, using certain words, can cause some awkwardness within a company's culture.

I was going to ask you precisely whether you found many differences between the sectors where you deliver training.

Yes, sometimes there are, but I'm not one to divide things into public versus private, the "good guys" or the "bad guys". I don't hold that view.

I think there are good examples everywhere. There are very good people everywhere, and in every organisation I've been to, I've felt a great openness to these themes. Sometimes we have to change a word here or there, but that's part of the adaptation process.

Knowing what you know now, would you have changed anything in Happy Tree's journey?

I think that's a reflection we make every day. What we've come to realise is that the experience of work can't be too separated from people's lives.

We now have a very interesting project, a smooth transition-to-retirement project. We created this project because, much like with work, there's often a certain illusion about retirement that doesn't then materialise in practice. In Portugal, we're among the countries in the world with the highest life expectancy, and so retirement lasts more and more years. But, at the same time, we're among the countries in Europe with the worst quality of life after retirement.

What we're doing now, with several organisations, is helping people who are heading into retirement make a smooth transition. It's very interesting to work on this theme, because it has a lot to do with offboarding techniques. Companies work a great deal on onboarding, on welcoming people in, but work very little on offboarding. That's sometimes not socially responsible, because people gave their whole working life to that organisation, and then it's as if a door slams shut and, suddenly, the organisation no longer cares.

From one day to the next, what was a huge part of the person's identity ceases to exist altogether.

That's exactly it. Work, often maligned, is one of the pillars of our identity, perhaps one of the strongest.

We're with the people we work with, sometimes, more than we're with our own families.

When work ends, something else ends too, which is the social network that work provides. The structure of the day, the need to get ready to leave the house, a schedule… Someone who asks me how the family is, how the kids are doing, how things are at home, who looks at me and can tell whether I'm sadder or happier – that ends.

That's why it's important to help people make that transition and ensure it's a smooth one. Why? Because it's important that the new habits of retirement are established before retirement begins. So that when retirement arrives, only the work falls away, while everything else carries on calmly.

This is to say that we're committed to people's whole lives. We want to bring more happiness to people's entire lives, and I think that's an ongoing piece of work.

Besides being the founder of Happy Tree, you also have another job – you're a university lecturer. How many years have you been teaching?

I was an HR director until 2019, and from 2020 I started lecturing at various universities, and I love it!

I love it because I think it's important to educate people at university not just with knowledge, but also with positive energy, telling them it's possible to do better. We often find ourselves in difficult contexts, whether at work, at home, or even at university, and the great aim isn't for it to become the best scenario in the world, but for it to become a little better.

What I try to convey to my students is that they might go to work for companies on their own street, in Lisbon, or abroad, but probably, through committed, well-informed and structured input, they can improve that reality. I try to create that sense of possibility, that hope, and also that responsibility – that we can do better.

Do you think your experience as a university lecturer has influenced the direction of your company in any way?

I think it has. Firstly, it keeps me constantly up to date. Every year, I have hundreds of students walking through the door who've read books I sometimes haven't, watched films I've never seen, who care, who have information, and who spark in me a desire to keep learning continuously. Staying constantly up to date with knowledge is essential for anyone bringing messages to companies.

I'm terrified of being a fraud (laughs). I'm terrified of talking nonsense, of stating platitudes, so before going anywhere, I prepare properly. Being a university lecturer helps a lot, because when I go to talk to students about training, I study hard so I can say things that make sense and are useful to people. Whether it's about training, performance evaluation, structuring wellbeing plans, communication, conflict management, or leadership.

So when Happy Tree then takes these messages and brings them to organisations, I feel very confident, because none of that knowledge fell from the sky. It's ongoing work of learning and sharing that I think gives our clients robustness and confidence.

As a founder, especially in this field of human resources, do you find it easy to balance your professional life with your personal life?

That's a big challenge. Being a lecturer already comes with several challenges – we don't really have a nine-to-five schedule. Combining that with projects at organisations, where most of the time we don't set the day or the hour, and which are often not on our doorstep, but in Lisbon, the Algarve, or elsewhere... Obviously, your personal schedule gets a bit compromised. But I think it's important to bear in mind that the quality of our personal relationships isn't entirely defined by frequency, it's defined by quality.

What matters is that when we're with our loved ones, we're fully present, whole, and also fulfilled. And if work fulfils me, which is something that genuinely fulfils me, I think that also brings something positive to the relationships I have in my family life.

I looked a bit into your journey and noticed three things you've already done: planting a tree, writing a book and having a child. Were these goals things you always knew you wanted to achieve?

Yes, yes. I have a son, he's 17, he's at that stage of heading off to university, which is a very important moment.

It ends up closing a circle for you, being a university lecturer yourself and now having a son about to enter university.

That's true. Over the past few years, whenever I looked at my students, I did in fact picture my son.

The question of the book is interesting. I love reading, I love writing, and it's quite curious how life sometimes has plans for us that we ourselves don't have, isn't it? Plans that override our own.

When I left my corporate life, I had a plan, one that's now in a drawer, which was to write a novel. I did the research for that novel, I had it all worked out in my head, I knew exactly the month I was going to start it, but in the month I was going to start it, I decided to write a book about Happiness at Work instead.

That was what was stirring inside me, what I wanted to do, and from there the novel was put on hold and that book emerged instead, one that led to this message being embraced by many people. It also led to the creation of Happy Tree, a project that now brings more happiness into people's lives.

Your tree (laughs). Besides books and writing, which you've already shared you love, cinema is another art form that plays an important role for you, which is why we decided to meet here, at the Batalha cinema. Do you remember the first film you saw?

I remember the film perfectly, though it probably won't excite anyone else – I went to see "Rambo II" (laughs). I went with an uncle who was going with his girlfriend and dared me to come along, and he even said: "But you haven't seen Rambo 1." For me that didn't matter, I went to see "Rambo 2" and I loved it!

That's an incredible memory!

It's an incredible memory, I remember it perfectly! And that's why I have a certain fondness whenever I see Sylvester Stallone in anything, because that really was my first interaction with cinema.

What's your genre of choice?

I like films that don't end when the lights come back on, films that stay with you. I like films that make me think, I think that's what art is about, it has some extraordinary qualities for us. It has the ability to make us think, to give us wonder and to make us imagine things that don't exist. There's only one "no" that's positive, and that's "why not?" Sometimes, art makes us think: why not? Why couldn't this be different?

I recall two films recently that I saw and loved. One is "I'm Still Here", a Brazilian film that makes us think about how we deal with loss. I think that film could never have been made in Portugal, because we deal with loss in a very sombre, very closed-off way, and only Brazilians manage to say: "We're sad. Smile, because that will have an impact on other people's lives." I think that's an incredibly powerful message in the face of the deep pain of losing someone close to you.

I also recently saw "Sentimental Value", a Norwegian film that makes us think about how difficult it is to build good family relationships. The way we sometimes treat the people closest to us far too seriously. It's a film that touches on, that addresses, with great delicacy, this theme. Love doesn't always have to be the love of joy, nor does it always have to be a perfect love, but it's probably the thing that matters most in this world.

It's funny that you mentioned two films that portray, above all, relationships, which is somewhat what you do in your day-to-day work.

At the end of the day, all of this is about relationships. That's why, when we run training programmes and people are unhappy at work, it's probably because there are relationships that aren't going well.

A few days ago, in a pre-retirement preparation programme, I was trying to convey a message of optimism to people, and a lady told me, with her own truth, but with pain: "How am I supposed to face retirement with happiness, when the happiest moments I have during the week are the ten minutes when my husband leaves the house to walk the dog and leaves me alone?"

It's always about relationships. When they're good, we want more. When they're not good, we want distance. But it's important to bear in mind that happiness needs relationships. We need people close to us. Studies show that people with a richer social life are happier, and they also tell us something else – loneliness kills. People who are alone die younger and lose their memory sooner.

We all need to create a more community-minded society, with more people who care about one another, who support each other and understand each other. There's a lack of empathy everywhere. We're always lecturing one another, and sometimes people just want to be understood. Our friends like us not because we solve their problems, but because we listen, and at the end we buy a beer, give a hug and go home. That's sometimes what's missing at work too. In this whirlwind of getting things done, we don't always stop, listen and try to understand the other person. If we did more of that, we'd probably have a better society, workplaces would be happier, and even companies would perform better.

As a creator yourself, can you ever see yourself getting involved in making a film?

I'd never thought about that. But my head is full of ideas for things that probably may never happen. My head is full of answers to questions nobody ever asked me, I have ideas for books I've started and never finished, so who knows, maybe one of them could still take on movement and image one day? (laughs)

Now, the hardest question: if you had to choose, what's your favourite film?

My favourite film? I'm very clear on that! I have two favourite films.

My favourite film is "The Shawshank Redemption", because it's a film about hope, one that caught me at a stage in life when I was at university, aged 20, and it left a mark on me. I have colleagues for whom it was "Dead Poets Society", but for me it was this one, for its message of justice and also of love for art and for freedom, for hope – I love it.

I also have another film that's very important to me, which is "Notting Hill", a film I watch with my son. We've watched it hundreds of times (laughs), I know it by heart!

Was that a fixation he had as a child? (laughs)

I don't know if it was his or mine (laughs). What I know is that it's a film that, often, when we've got nothing else to do, is the first one we watch. We both know, at the same moment, Julia Roberts is going to say: "I'm also just a girl, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her."

It's very funny that a romantic comedy is the comfort film you share with your son.

It's true, it's true. And earlier this year the two of us went to Notting Hill to visit all those spots, we tried to push through that fence, we did it all!

That's brilliant! (laughs) To finish, I have a few quick questions for you. Firstly, besides the three goals you've already achieved – planting a tree, writing a book, having a child – is there something you'd really like to do that you haven't yet accomplished?

I think there are many things I'd like to do. On the more artistic side, I'd love to write a novel. I have the novel in my head, I just need the time and the peace of mind to write it. I think that will fulfil me a great deal; it'll make me suffer a lot too, but it'll also fulfil me greatly, and I really want that to happen.

On the work side, I'd also like to be able to bring this message to more organisations. I think we are, and I'll exaggerate a bit, but we're saving lives. Ultimately, we go into contexts with little knowledge, not always full of light or optimism, and we bring more knowledge and structure.

We make it so that people, the next day, can work better, feel better and create the conditions to get home happier with their lives. That's our mission, one I want to keep pursuing – and we're not short of enthusiasm for it!

Is there anything you can't live without?

Without the people I love dearly.

What's the most important date of your life?

Tomorrow.

What's your biggest flaw?

My biggest flaw, I have so many! I think sometimes being too hasty.

And your greatest quality?

I think I'm a good person.

When you were a child, what did you want to be?

This is the honest truth – I wanted to be Marco Paulo. (laughs) I wanted to be Marco Paulo!

Please, elaborate on that answer (laughs).

I have a wonderful childhood memory – I attended a concert by António Variações. Few people can say this. António Variações opened for a Marco Paulo concert, and I spent weeks convincing my parents to take me to it!

Was it because of the hair?

It was everything! Marco Paulo was the greatest. For a child, Marco Paulo with his curls, with his songs, was the greatest! It must be the equivalent today of wanting to be Ronaldo.

That's a good comparison (laughs). To finish, one last question: do you have a favourite word?

I do – reciprocity. I think it's the most beautiful word in the world.